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Welcome to another episode of Rough Talk VR, a weekly podcast with in-depth game reviews, exclusive developer interviews and the latest metaquest and virtual reality news.
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We join our hosts, the father-son team of D Scruffles and Stratus, today as they spend another episode breaking down and discussing the world of virtual reality.
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Hey, welcome to this episode of Rough Talk, vr.
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Today we have one that I can already see your smile going.
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This is the most selfish wish list guest ever for me, yeah when we talk about bucket list guests, our guest today is definitely on there.
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This is one that I honestly didn't think I figured I'd run into Bigfoot in a while before we'd ever get to talk to this man himself.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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So, before we get carried away on it, today we're joined with spoon fed, the developer of grim the legend, an upcoming vr game that reminiscent of rust features but takes place on mars.
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Yeah, and we've recently gotten access.
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Yeah, we've been hyping it up for months.
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Just off of concept, we're talking about it since we first heard about it yeah and I'm not shutting up but spoon, you know he does much more than just grim.
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He's a member of the combat waffle studios team.
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He's done work on ghosts of zabor.
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He's done work with swordsman vr.
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He's quite the developer he's legit, a legend in the the vr programming world.
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Yes, you got a problem.
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This is the guy that you wish you had on payroll so to take to say we're pumped is an understatement, so be.
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This interview isn't for me, though this is for you know our guests today.
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So, spoon, do you mind introducing yourself a little bit more?
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Uh for the guests and just tell them what exactly you do uh, I'm boone.
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I work for Combat Waffle.
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I was the lead developer on or not lead senior developer on Tabor for a while.
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Scott somehow convinced me to bring Grim to market, so now I just work on Grim full time.
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And it's my understanding that Grim was something that you've been working on for a while as a little side project.
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Is that right a little?
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Over six years on and off wow, and where did the concept for the game come from?
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Are you like a long time rust?
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fanatic.
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I've always wanted to know that, like Like was Rust your jam I love Rust.
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Rust is probably my favorite game, and nobody.
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It was too big of a scale for any studio at the time to take on.
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Too much risk for a large scale game like that and it being only PC VR, there was no way it would ran on like a quest one well, even on today's version.
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Just walking through it on pcvr, I'm like wow, the fact that this is going to be on the quest is, yeah, that's pretty amazing.
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But were you professionally working in the vr industry yet when you started, I guess, construction of Grimm?
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No, I was working in sales, actually, and I had my own office.
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I answered emails Nobody ever bothered me on my phone and I would work on either PokeQuest, which is one of my other games, or Grimm, depending on which one I was burnt out on at the time.
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So how did that go from, I guess, a hobby thing doing during the sales gig to now you're working for VR Studios?
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I had seen a job posting and it was somebody I had recognized.
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It was Alex Sin at Sin Studio and I had helped him previously on another developer Discord and I reached out.
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I was like, hey, I heard you're looking for another developer.
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I'm kind of interested.
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He was immediately interested.
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At that point they put me on like a trial basis for like a month I think, and a week into it they just hired me directly on.
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So that's kind of how I got into the door, because everything before that was just hobby.
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And completely self-taught, that was my next question yeah yeah, uh, you're just like watching unity videos uh, on youtube.
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You know how did this this all?
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this started back.
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I was 13 at the time.
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I think there was a playstation game called uh socom.
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Uh, there was a cheater on it and he had a cheat device that could bypass sony's uh dnas protocols that, like the game sharks and stuff couldn't get online with, and I wanted to do it.
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So I I went to books a million and I bought a c++ for dummies book and it turned out it was uh, it wasn't even in c++.
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I couldn't even do anything with it.
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So at the time it was kind of a waste.
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But that's kind of.
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What got me interested in programming was because I wanted to cheat on a video game well, that's actually pretty funny, coming full circle to the news that, you know, ghost of Tabor put out the other week with, like, their new anti-cheat system to to van.
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But you know, hey, it's sometimes that's.
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All you need is the passion for it and to come full circle with it.
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Now.
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Unreal Engine that uses C++, right, yeah.
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Yeah, so might not have worked with socom.
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It definitely helped you help you with.
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This started in uh source engine, which was also c++, and I did a lot of modding and source engine.
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Uh, I did a little bit in cry engine and I was in Unity for a while and I was working on a Counter-Strike-style VR shooter in Unity.
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And then Pavlov released and I was like, well, that's kind of dead now.
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And Unreal Engine released and I started working in Unreal and haven't looked back, so you can also code in C sharp as well.
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Yeah.
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Very talented.
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Yeah, I'm just, I'm like I'm like in self-taught too, it's.
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That's the part that makes it even more more crazy, yeah, but I also feel like if you self learn something, it's because you really want to learn it, because you're being forced to just go through the motions.
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But no, your work, my understanding, is legendary.
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If there's a problem, you have a talent for being able to spot the reason why, or being able to look in some Matrix-type vision and seize the anomaly in what I can only imagine is just millions of pieces of code to go through to find an issue.
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So I mean, that in itself is just absolutely mind-boggling.
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Well, he says, alec jumped on the opportunity.
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There's a reason.
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When you reached out about it.
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That's probably based on the results of the past work you all did.
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So, geez, I have so many questions.
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You know it's kind of hard to pick a place of where to go to.
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No, just feet first.
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Go to questions.
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You know it's kind of hard to pick a place of of where to go to.
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No, just be.
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Go to next.
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Yeah, but but we'll continue down it.
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So you start working at sin studio, probably still working on pokey quest as well, because my understanding you don't freaking sleep, it's just all day developing.
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Uh, at what point do you go?
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Yeah, how long were you at Studio and how did that lead into Combat Waffle Studios with Ghost of Tabor?
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When I started at Sin Studio I didn't want to jump directly into game development because I wasn't sure.
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I have a kid, I have a family, I have a mortgage.
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I did not want to jump directly into something that I didn't know if I would be doing it again.
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So I actually.
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I worked 30 hours a week when I started and I also stayed at my four hour a week job, so I was splitting between the two because I was doing my hobby stuff late at night.
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So it was no different for me, just different project.
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And now you're getting paid for it as a professional job.
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So this is funny to me because I've always heard your work schedule is basically you work all day on Ghost of Tabor and then you work all night on Grimm, and it sounds like that's exactly how it was for you from the start of your professional game development.
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You're working all day in sales your full-time job and then putting in 30 hours a week on another job.
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Yeah, that's quite incredible.
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So how did you meet Scott and how did that lead in to you know you at Combat Waffle?
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Same Discord.
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I met Alec in.
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I had Ray.
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Y'all know Ray he.
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He had needed some help and I kind of helped behind the scenes with stuff on Tabor.
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If they got stuck they would message me and ask me before I even got hired.
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And one day it was actually my kid's birthday.
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We were getting ready to go somewhere I think Trampoline Park or something and I was helping Ray with something.
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I was like, just hire me, I'll do it, just kind of joking.
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And 10 minutes later I was on an interview with Scott and he offered me a job.
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Couldn't pass it up.
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I felt bad the whole weekend to think about it.
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I was comfortable where I was at Everyone at Sin Studio I like, I still like, like, I still like alex, still like almer, all of them all good people.
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Uh, it's just an opportunity that I couldn't pass up.
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So no, professionally I mean it.
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It makes sense.
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And now seeing that you're able to devote a lot of time into to grim it, just I mean I'm like I'm smiling because I'm a consumer.
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So I'm like okay, makes me happier, you know, maybe it'd be coming out sooner, sooner this path than if a different path was chosen and it's funny how life works sometimes.
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You have to be careful what you joke about, because you know you don't know, what's gonna gonna happen, put it in the universe from it.
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So just for my own curiosity, what was the point that you kicked the can on?
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You know the old job, the old sales job.
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Don't tell me you still do it.
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No, no.
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It's got to the point where I was just so tired Like I couldn't keep getting, like I still do this.
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Sitting in an office every day just made me more tired, probably three months into Syn Studio when I left my job, where I kind of felt that, hey, I can just do this full time, I don't have to hopefully worry about getting fired next week and living in a box.
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Yeah, there's always that feeling.
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When you start something new, you're like is this real?
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Yet?
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I know it's real, it's, it's happening, but is that?
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ending tomorrow.
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I still have that.
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I still have that.
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I'm going to wake up and I'm going to have to go work at McDonald's tomorrow.
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Like even have to go work at mcdonald's tomorrow, like even this far into it, the imposter syndrome never really goes away.
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Uh, in, in that regard, that's for sure.
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I guess that's probably because it's so surreal.
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I mean it sounds like you're doing what you love.
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You know what you would do as a hobby if you know money wasn't even a thing.
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So I'm sure there's a little bit of that surreal aspect to the last couple years as well.
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And then, uh, so at this point in time I mentioned before that you know I've always heard you work a lot on Ghost of Tabor and on Grimm, but Grimm's pretty polished.
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On what I'm playing on PC VR, I gotta imagine it's pretty far into the development.
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What's your split like at this point with Ghost of Tabor and Grimm?
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I don't really do anything on Tabor anymore.
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I haven't really worked Tabor since probably December.
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Alright, and is that because of how far along Grimm is, or does it just for it to become a thing it just needs?
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Needs that much, like all of your attention.
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It needs all of my attention.
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Like I'm on a timeline for Grim so I can't put a lot of focus on Tabor.
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They to me if they have any issues or need to figure something out or need help with something.
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Outside of that I don't really do a whole lot with support now I'm sure that's well.
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It should be noted too.
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You're not.
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You're still working smallest team possible, right?
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yeah, it's just me and two artists I.
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I heard somebody in the in your discord once and they were asking why, and then scott chimed in and said it's because you don't.
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You don't actually want the.
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I don't want the extra help, but I heard you give a break if something goes wrong, you know where to find it exactly.
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who did it?
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So I I kind of understood at that moment like all all, right, I get it.
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You got 10 people in your program.
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Something breaks, now you got to go find it from.
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So it makes sense.
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But I just can't believe you're doing this by yourself, dude.
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Too many hands.
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What I've stepped into is like this is a humongous world, and how long have those other two people been a part of the project?
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Are they like recent people?
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Have they been around since you know?
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years.
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One of them, I think, october of last year, and then one beginning of this year, and I'm currently looking to bring on another artist.
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No developers, just another artist.
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Is the reason Discord's going to blow up?
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Yeah, is the reason for the artist like for, like, optimizing reasons, or is that just an area that you're not comfortable with?
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I'm not good at art.
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If if I did art, you would see a bunch of stick figures running around and crayoned rocks everywhere so it's kind of a thing of like I can do everything else.
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It's just this is the one thing I can't do, so three people on that.
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You know.
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Everything else I'll take care of that makes sense.
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It's also important to know your own limitations.
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That's how some people fuck up.
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You know they.
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They think they're good at everything when they're not being honest with themselves.
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Yeah, so at least you know your strongest points and you're willing to stick with them I could probably do art, but I don't have time.
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How many hours?
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Because in my head you're working 20 hours a day.
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That's just how I do it.
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You're on the Elon Musk schedule of time frame, but what is the legit hour?
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Work week?
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And this is seven days a week.
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I don't work five days, I work all seven days a week.
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I don't work five days, I work all seven days.
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My schedule is typically get up at 7.30, start working at 8.
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Depending on how things go, I usually stop around 6 or 7 pm.
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Around 6 or 7 pm I spend time with Emily till my wife pretty much falls asleep around 10 or 11 o'clock and then I'm back on the computer until 3 am and then go to sleep.
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Well, not really go to sleep, black out and then wake up and do it again.
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Probably dreaming of code and things that you want to implement.
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It's actually like a half sleep.
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I hope my wife gets.
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My wife gets so mad because we'll be watching something on tv and I'll something will pop into my head and I'll get up and she's like where are you going?
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I'm like I gotta go to the computer.
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I have to fix this.
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I just remembered but that's a story that you'll hear, regardless of industry, from.
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You know great creative people.
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You'll hear that from writers.
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You'll hear that from musicians, you can't turn it off no, when you think of the thought you got to do it in that moment it might be gone, you know.
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So I I completely understand that, and obviously you were hired for ghost of tabor, but it sounds like at some point people inside Combat Waffle became aware of Grimm.
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So how did that happen?
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Was it you just kind of talking, say, hey, scott, you know, just so you know, I have this project as well, I just happen to have kind of a Rust in VR situation going on here.
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Yeah, how did it become known?
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I didn't go to Scott, scott came to me for it.
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I didn't go to Scott, scott came to me for it.
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Soul had tried it, a couple other, I think ZStorm short stacks, and I don't know who initially showed it to Scott, or maybe I did and I just don't remember it from lack of sleep, but he hounded me for a while because he wanted me to be able to release it, which at the time I'd never planned on releasing it within a.
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I wanted to put four more years into it before I ever showed it to the public, really, and it was only going to be PC VR at the time.
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Were you stubborn on adding the quest to that list.
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Yes, because I wanted to push the game forward with the scale which at the time there was no map in VR that size.
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Now there's Contractor Showdown, which their map is slightly smaller than mine because of the uh, the ocean kind of the shape.
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It's not as much playable area as the Mars map.
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And it shrinks fast.
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Yes, yes, it's not persistent.
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I feel like that that's a big reason that they can get away with it so easily because, like I don't think the game has to load the entire map, the whole game.
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It only has to load it.
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For what?
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A couple minutes before I mean the second you load it, the zone's already shrinking.
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And we question that with whether the ocean was included in the map size, but I would assume it is.
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And at this time, if I'm not crazy, grim was not the Mars setting right, it was more of like that classic Rust setting.
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Yeah yeah, I'm still on the fence.
00:18:50.044 --> 00:18:52.266
The island's coming back at some point.
00:18:52.266 --> 00:18:55.488
My heart is on the island.
00:18:55.488 --> 00:19:00.951
The Mars map was like to be able to go to Quest.
00:19:05.736 --> 00:19:13.119
I couldn't do an island at the scale that I wanted to do, so there's still that part of you that I'm always thinking about the island.
00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:29.884
So is there a possible scenario where Mars could exist on PCVR and Quest, but you could have an island in Mars on PCVR only, or would it be like an injustice to the I haven't.
00:19:30.596 --> 00:19:32.663
I've thought about it a lot, I'm not sure.
00:19:32.663 --> 00:19:41.007
While the quest to is supported, it's kind of impossible for me to do a giant Island.
00:19:41.007 --> 00:19:43.798
It's not the quest three that holds it back, it's the quest to.
00:19:43.798 --> 00:19:45.196
Okay.
00:19:47.021 --> 00:19:56.076
I've never, wanted, uh, a game to be able to choose, to be exclusive to quest 3 more, yeah, but if the idea is to get it on quest.
00:19:56.076 --> 00:19:58.467
It's because of the amount of quest 2s on the market.
00:19:58.969 --> 00:20:03.583
So then you're limiting that it kind of it makes sense I get it ah what a struggle.
00:20:03.583 --> 00:20:05.647
As a developer, I'd really like the island.
00:20:05.647 --> 00:20:06.999
You know what the hell man.
00:20:09.449 --> 00:20:09.990
It's coming.
