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Welcome to another episode of Rough Talk VR, a weekly podcast with in-depth game reviews, exclusive developer interviews and the latest metaquest and virtual reality news.
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We join our hosts, the father-son team of D Scruffles and Stratus, today as they spend another episode breaking down and discussing the world of virtual reality.
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Hey, welcome to this episode of Rough Talk VR.
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We got one that I think is going to be a load of fun.
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You know, today we're joined with joe halper.
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He's the creative director and the founder of the studio behind an upcoming game, nope challenge.
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The studio, of course, is happy manic.
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You know, we have joe on.
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We were just chatting with him a little bit before the podcast started and good energy.
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I think that this is going to be a fun one.
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I don't think this is going to be a struggle at all, and when you hear what Nope Challenge is, you go.
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Well, the people behind this, they have to be kind of up to something.
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They got to be a little crazy.
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Twisted and fun.
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Yeah, that's a good way to put it Twisted and fun.
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So before I go too crazy, joe, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?
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Better than I can tell our listeners who you are and maybe even what nope challenge is?
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yeah, yeah.
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So, uh, against joe, uh, happy.
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Manic is my studio.
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I'm located in raleigh, north carolina.
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Very small team, uh, really tiny team of uh, uh, handful people, and we've been developing this title called nope challenge and nope challenge, which is releasing on thursday, april 25th.
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Um, it's, it's a game about confronting phobias, basically challenging yourself with these phobias, and you think like heights, clowns, spiders those are some of the headliners that I say are in the game.
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But there's a twist to help you along with these challenges, there's a note button, and that note button's on you at all times.
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So when you're going through these various challenges, you can hit that at any time.
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And when you hit that, what it does is it takes you to what's called a breather space, and that breather space is what it sounds like.
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It's a spot that you can just like rest, relax, reflect, recharge and really bring your heart rate down, because we have various challenges that will make a lot of people's heart rates explode.
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And then, when you're all better, you're all, you're ready to go, because there's there's things that preoccupy their purposely uh, then you can then go right back to the thing you noped out from, or you, you just choose a different challenge to go into, uh, with various phobias and the.
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The other thing that we're doing is the game, besides the note button, besides the breather space that allows you to manage this.
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We also try to make it as approachable as possible to as many people.
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So there's intensity categories, so you have the light and then you have the moderate and you have the extreme and what you'll start seeing when the game goes out everybody's posting, jumping full on into the extreme.
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And what you'll start seeing like when the game goes out, everybody's posting, like, jumping full-on into the extreme.
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You know just like and we've been, I, I gave it out to a handful of people we're already seeing like people like losing it and noping out and just like breathing in the breather space.
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But it's also, um, the light is, if you're like new to vr, or you're new or you think you might have one of these challenges or one of these phobias, or you're just not even sure.
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We always suggest going to the light, go into the light, and the light challenges are basically ones that are hand-holdy.
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I call it.
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They're the bunny slopes, they're the little wave and it's basically where you can tread water, water, and you can use that note button if it gets too intense and it's a little scripted, a little exposure curve and then that way you can approach things slowly and as many times as you want to like, get past that challenge you might have with that particular phobia.
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And then in the headliners that I talked about there's the, the main ones with the heights, the spiders and the clowns.
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But you know, in the game there's triggers to over 40 recognized phobias that are spread throughout.
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So it's like it's a minefield of phobias and everybody's different as far as how they react to this, to the game and to these various phobias.
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And I was talking about the light, you know, just basically going with the light.
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But on the other end of the spectrum, which, which is going for the modded to the extreme, the extreme can be very extreme for a lot of people and we've been seeing that and we've had reactions that have been like in, like crazy.
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The extreme goes more into, uh, a lot of the ai that we got involved, not the ai everybody's talking about now, with the opening idols.
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I'm talking like old school AI, that where we have clowns, robotic clowns that are out to you know, kill you, play with you, and we have spiders that are not just like oh, spider.
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You know, these spiders have all these variables that change to make it as dynamic as possible, and that creates a diverse and a dynamic environment that makes things to be very heightened, especially in an immersed VR, and that has resulted in things where it's basically the game is playing with.
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What I'm doing is playing with people's limbic systems.
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It's your fight, flight, freeze, and it's a beautiful thing that your brain does to prepare you for something that's going to be terrifying to you, or preparing for something that is dangerous or you perceive as dangerous to you.
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So not only is this game playing with it, but there's the tools that are inside it that let you play with it, and that's the challenge.
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It's like if you have a, if you have a phobia and you go in this, you're like I'm not sure we can hope out, you can breathe, you can do intensity levels, the challenges and, um, yeah, it's, it's a mat.
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Like I always say, it's like it's a magical thing to see somebody that is, all of a sudden, their brain, lizard brains, kicking in and you're seeing this whole thing happen and, like a lot of people go like ha ha ha.
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You know, it's like amazing to watch, but this game is different, and the fact that I wanted there to be an out, a breathing spot for somebody that they can go to instead of throwing the headset off and say like this is ridiculous.
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I want them to get to a place where they can actually surf that wave and like, feel that sensation and have their sorry, their whole sympathetic system kicking in, and then pace themselves and uh, and then they have their outs and people can still watch and it can still be amazing, and then they have a little wave, a big wave and a monster wave with these intensity categories.
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So, um, a lot of detail.
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I just wanted to explain the game.
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It's got a lot of mechanics.
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It's got a lot of things going on.
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I think that's what's cool too is that when people uh, I had uh.
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I'd like to talk about uh don from upload vr.
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When I met him at gdc and he was the first person I was showing the game.
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When I got there and you know things were so crazy and I was like, how much time was showing the game?
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When I got there and you know, things were so crazy and I was like how much time do you have?
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He's like ah, you know, he's like I got, I got like 20 minutes and I was like you know about the?
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He's like, yeah, like phobias and stuff.
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I'm like yeah, and he's like okay, and we got together and I showed it to him and he, we, we were there for god.
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I was like yeah, and his it was amazing seeing his like hair raised.
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I'm like, yeah, I'm seeing you twitch man.
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Um, and it was.
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It was pretty wild.
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I mean I could talk about like all the things, like the unexpected and the expected and just so many things developing this and all um, it's a fun game.
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Well, I.
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I think we're about to see an onslaught of new VR users being recorded.
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Yeah, it's like the same as Richie's Blank Experience.
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Yeah oh no.
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This is going to go.
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I think it'll go huge on the socials with clips and stuff like that Because you're not limited to just one thing.
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I mean, you have like, let's say, each phobia has three different, and it's not a repeat of like, just a harder version of the first unique exactly so.
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It's a different and as good as it is for, like me and you, it's when you're new to vr.
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Oh my god, it's different dude yeah, well, that's the thing too.
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Like people such as yourselves, you have your I call vr legs.
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You you've been around the block, you've played a lot of different games and you might venture off into the extreme.
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If you don't have any, you might have a phobia, though that makes you say like you know what, I'm going to stick with the light, you know, and I'll see what that's like.
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And we've seen that already with so many posts, and it was awesome to watch, because this person is experienced with VR, because it's not a horror game.
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I don't like to call it a horror game, but it kind of is.
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It's like the horror that you experience the way that phobias are.
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Phobias are just, basically, there's like a baseline, and the way that phobias are is like an increased or a higher level of fear of a certain thing in life.
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That is something that you've experienced or it's hereditary, passed down to you, and the example that I constantly use is that you know you have little kids.
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You watch them in the trees and they're just climbing.
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You're like, oh, my God, what the hell?
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Get the hell down from there.
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You know what are you doing and they're like, yeah, whatever.
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They're like jumping all over the place and you're like, wow, and one little kid falls from the tree, busts his arm, busts his leg, bruises, whatever it may be.
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Well then that child was going to grow up possibly with a phobia.
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Because now the brain what the brain does, it's amazing.
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It records that.
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It's just basically it's a memory, it's something that it remembered that your body got injured.
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So now, as you grow up, if that person now has a phobia, it's because of the experience that they had.
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And now the brain knows and subconsciously it just goes bink, it starts protecting you and it starts engaging the things that are necessary to protect you with your fight, flight and freeze.
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And then when that, when that person now they're grown up and it can manifest a little bit now, they're now their heartbeat rises and their pupils dilate and they sweat a little more and they're like Jesus.
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You know, it's just like.
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I don't want to go near that edge.
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I don't want to do this because they've had that, you know that experience and this kind of plays with that.
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But at the same time there's the hereditary, where, if you can have and I always use this example of you have like two babies and the one baby you take some spiders and you drop them on the baby's head and that baby's like blah, blah, blah and they'll take the spider and stick it in its mouth.
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It doesn't care, it's just like it's a baby, right?
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But you have another baby, you show it even a picture of a spider.
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It's going to flinch Because it's been passed down to that baby like hereditary, like a survival, through his line, his or her line, and then you know it's just basically a hereditary protective thing.
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And you know there's all these elements that people have had experiences with, with things that they fear, and that fear is unique to each individual and that individual will consider that to be a horror.
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And that's where it's like.
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It's not a horror game, is a psychological game.
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But you might have a tendency to like, get heightened or triggered by that one particular thing, like balloons, like there's people that it's a recognized phobia of balloons, because you know you squeeze them, you pop them.
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People might have had a triggered experience or experience when they're a kid, with their brother or sister smashing in their faces, who knows?
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But they see a balloon, they're like ah, and their brain goes click, and then the next thing you know they're sweating and you're like what's?
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You know, and people might be like what's going on, why you know, and they're terrified, but it's because of that experience that they've their brain has fought away and it's protecting them because they don't want to go through that again.
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And this game plays with that.
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But it also gives them the ability to know about from that and it basically to approach it in a way or jump right in.
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You know, um, so that's, that's why, um the game, it's interesting to see how many people like what type of people play, and the ones that say, like even yourselves, it's like, um, I've had people that are hardcore horror people.
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They get in and they scream, like you know.
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I had this one guy.
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He's like hardcore, uh, hardcore horror.
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And he's like I love horror games, I love this.
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But he never did vr before and I'm like, all right.
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I'm like, well, this isn't like really a horror game.
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And he's like, oh no, this is gonna be great.
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He was screaming, screaming, he took it.
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He's like, oh my god, he's like this is I never experienced.
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I'm like, yeah, well, a lot's going on right now.
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He's like, oh my God, he's like this is I never experienced it.
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I'm like, yeah, well, a lot's going on right now he's like he went to get it but he was just drenched in sweat and he was more like triggered than others that were playing.
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But yeah, it's just, it's wild because the way that I set it up is that so you could have your sister, your brother, your mother, your grandmother.
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I mean it starts in the breather space, which is a beautiful island.
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You'd be like look, grandma, it's.
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It's like it's like florida, you know, it's beautiful, it's nice.
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And then they'd be like, oh, wow, you know, and they could explore and it's comfortable.
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And then, after they get acclimated, it's like let me try the light.
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You know like, I'm not afraid of spiders, let me try that.
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Or let me, I'm not afraid of spiders, let me try that.
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Or let me, I'm not afraid of heights, let me try that.
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And that's the idea.
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It's like that bridge and they always know they have the out Um and um.
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It's also.
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I could go on.
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Just let me know if I don't go on too long.
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Oh no, keep going.
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Yeah, so the uh.
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The other thing is, uh, what we've been seeing and I've I've done.
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I have over 20, I forget how many years it's been 25, 27 years, whatever experience with doing game simulation training.
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A lot of my time is spent in the games, like with building studios, managing studios and titles and all that, but I've also done applications that have to deal with cognitive and dealing with those types of things.
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Have to deal with cognitive and dealing with those types of things, and the interesting thing that you will see when people do this as like a challenge to themselves, is they're going to say nope to the nope, so they'll go in there and they might even be brand new to VR brand new and they might have a serious phobia.
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This is something I experienced way back when I was doing a prototype.
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For fun.
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They go in, they're terrified, they're screaming and they're covered in sweat.
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Everything's happening, they're shaken and all and they're not going to hit the button that they don't want to, because now they know that button's there and it's like a hot pepper contest and it's like you see the people like on hot ones and they know that milk is there, but they're like, no, I'm not going to drink that I'm going to keep going.
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I hate, you know, the heat.
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I'm not good with heat, but I'm going to keep pushing myself.
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And it's a little bit similar with this, because the heat that the person's having is like this fear that they have.
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And then you have that, not the milk but the buttons there, and they know they can go to a comfy place, but they want to push themselves.
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And we even had that happen at GDC, which was amazing.
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There was this guy, russell, right at the start of GDC.
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We just opened it up and we're all like in a frenzy trying to get things prepared at the booth and that was just an amazing experience.
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But the um, one of the first guys that walked up, I was like you know, talk, trying to get in the groove.
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You know it's just like, hey, you want to try the game and we had the banner up.
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He's like yeah.
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He's like what is it?
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And I'm like, well, it's called nope, challenge, and I'm like it's about phobias.
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He's like, oh, wow.
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He's like I was like you ever do vr before.
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He's like no, and I'm like okay, I'm like do you have any fears?
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He's like, and I forget what, how we're going about.
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I was like well, you haven't done, you haven't done vr before.
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I'm gonna throw you into this and it's about spiders and it's gonna be extreme.
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You okay with that.
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He's like let's do this, you know, and he was all excited but he didn't know what to expect.
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Um, and we put him in it and I explained to him the whole thing about the, the game and the note button and just, you know the breather space, like look, you have outs, you can hit this and if and I even told people too if it gets way too much, just take your headset off.
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If you even have to go there, that's fine.
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It's just.
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All these options are there for you.
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And you know, because you're gonna feel something.
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And he's like he's all excited.
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He's at GDC, things are starting off.
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I'm like cool, I record, we record him and his.
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It was so amazing to watch Cause he went through the full tilt and you can see like he's screaming.
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He's like what do I do?
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What do we do?
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We're like you have to pick up the spiders.
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He's like what?
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He's like freaking out.
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He's like what are you talking about?
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And we're like you have to pick up the spiders.
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He's like, and he's you can see him backing up and if you watch his shoulders, you could see the sweat starting to go through his shirt.
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Then you can start seeing his legs buckle as he's backing up.
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So he's screaming so loud that there was a news crew from China that was like five booths away and we're all watching and as we're watching this spectacle happen, a crowd's forming and then a news crew flies around the edge and this guy's with a camera.
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I'm like whoa, what's going on here?
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And this guy's still screaming and we're yelling at him like you have the note button, hit the note button.
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Hit the note button because we could see that he's in like this complete, unbelievable and emotional and everything going on with his in the limbic system.
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And he's like nope, not yet.
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And we're like, we're like that, that's it, that's, it's happening, like that's happening.
00:16:58.042 --> 00:17:04.249
And then and he just finally, he pushed as far as he could, he tapped out and he's just like bent over and he was laughing.
00:17:04.249 --> 00:17:07.305
And he's just like bent over and he was laughing and he's just like that was.
00:17:07.305 --> 00:17:09.391
And we're like yeah, I'm like you really pushed.
00:17:09.391 --> 00:17:12.204
He's like yeah, and he was laughing at his.
00:17:12.204 --> 00:17:23.300
Um, uh, whoever was there with them, they were everybody's just laughing and we had this crowd laughing and then the guy's guy's name was joe on the camera and he's just like.
00:17:23.300 --> 00:17:25.805
We heard it and we had to come over and see what was happening.
00:17:25.805 --> 00:17:26.871
That was insane.
00:17:26.871 --> 00:17:29.461
I'm like, yeah, they're like and they're sticking a microphone in my face.
00:17:29.461 --> 00:17:30.905
I'm like, hold on, you know.
00:17:30.905 --> 00:17:49.788
So I'm dealing with, so that that is an example of what we're going to see, and I think that, um, and that was an extreme, but some people will feel that on the light versions because of how these phobias are and you know, he was new to VR and he was really cool about it.
00:17:49.788 --> 00:17:55.833
He was really nice guy and that was our kickoff, the GDC, and after that that was like 1030.
00:17:56.732 --> 00:18:00.335
And that was the first day and by 12 o'clock there was word of mouth coming around.
00:18:00.634 --> 00:18:18.362
Everybody's like, hey, you know it was this ride, it was this like it was, and it's hard to it's hard to advertise the range that is there, because, of course, you can say like, oh, you're going to scream, scream, scream, scream, but what I, what I also need to try and do, is convey that it's accessible.
00:18:18.781 --> 00:18:25.048
It's very accessible, and I have empathy for people that are trying to play VR.
00:18:25.048 --> 00:18:34.414
I want as many people to play VR as possible and I know this is a very sensitive area because it's, you know, it's a psychology involved.
00:18:34.414 --> 00:18:48.250
It's psychological, but I'm trying to give all these outs so that they can, you know, get on that board and surf that intensity and you know we'll learn about VR.
00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:54.086
But also cause it gets, it gets intense, it gets really intense, especially with the, the AI, and we put a lot of time in that.
00:18:54.086 --> 00:19:05.347
We, we were inspired by other games out there that I'm like, yeah, we need that, I want that, we're gonna put that in there, and we did, and it's just been remarkable to see what's going on.
00:19:05.347 --> 00:19:10.391
So I, I could go on and on and on we had some funny things happen yeah I love it.
00:19:10.510 --> 00:19:13.585
And what was the the inspiration for this game?
00:19:13.585 --> 00:19:13.785
You know?
00:19:13.785 --> 00:19:15.450
Are you somebody that has phobias yourself?
00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:16.800
Is this something you've studied?
00:19:17.321 --> 00:19:26.327
you know, it seems like you know a lot about it, you know, yeah, I've actually studied a lot about it, um, just to have as best understanding at the time.
00:19:26.327 --> 00:19:28.050
So this goes back.
00:19:28.050 --> 00:19:30.335
I've done this series games.
00:19:30.335 --> 00:19:38.009
I was a director at another company where we're doing a lot of things that were in the healthcare military department of defense.
00:19:38.009 --> 00:19:44.749
I worked with anybody from a white coat to a suit to a military uniform you figure out what are the things they need.
00:19:44.749 --> 00:19:54.351
It's like a service-based situation, but we were doing things that were dealing with cognitive disabilities and all uh and vr wasn't really coming about just yet.
00:19:54.490 --> 00:20:00.034
I did some things for darpa, for soldier awareness, which was, um, you know some proprietary stuff.
00:20:00.034 --> 00:20:03.691
That was, uh, augmented reality and we would engage uh adversaries, just situational awareness on the battlefield.
00:20:03.691 --> 00:20:06.948
That was augmented reality and we would engage adversaries, just situational awareness on the battlefield.
00:20:06.948 --> 00:20:16.246
That was way back when and that was really cool to be able to do that to influence people that are physical and walking around, and it was neat to explore that.
00:20:16.246 --> 00:20:23.527
But I was also the inspiration specifically for this title came about in a couple different ways, for this title came about for in a couple of different ways.
00:20:23.527 --> 00:20:32.843
One was the, the VR like component, like being immersed in stuff, like that Oculus was.
00:20:32.843 --> 00:20:45.851
I don't even know if it was out yet, but Duke university had this Duke immersive virtual environment and that was a cave system and the cave systems are computer-aided virtual environments.
00:20:45.851 --> 00:21:10.546
So that was a six-panel system where they have projectors on the outside and it was top, bottom and all the walls and you put little booties on, you get into there and you walk around and what was really cool about that is they had these various experiences that you go through where they studied it, and this was back in 2009, I think it was, and they had the tracking on a device that you had.
00:21:10.546 --> 00:21:18.789
It was a controller and it tracked that controller and it tracked the person playing with the stereoscopic view and it was very immersive.
00:21:19.491 --> 00:21:34.480
And then one of the scenarios they had was a kitchen and what they did was they tried to stimulate people in that kitchen to kind of like heighten things over time, and I thought that was interesting because they want to see what this immersed virtual environment would have impact wise in this, you know, in this space.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:50.390
So they had a kitchen and you'd open up the door to the oven and when you do that, you could have other people in the space with you and even though that they was not trucking them, they'd all back up and that's doesn't exist the door and but you could interact, grab it and open it up.
00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:57.332
And that part with the grabbing, picking things up, opening cabinets and stuff like that, I'm like oculus.
00:21:57.332 --> 00:22:19.628
I'm not sure if it was out yet, but I I saw that part and that to me was the most intriguing the fact that you could control, not being like a little thumb thing that you just like a deep, like a controller, a game controller, but this was actually interacting and to me, I knew that was really important for a frame of reference and also for a way to protect yourself and a way to interact.
00:22:19.628 --> 00:22:20.971
It meant so much.
